H1N1 Vaccine: Educate Yourself

A lively debate that starts from an article about the H1N1 Virus and how it is so state controlled, that Seniors are complaining.
This debate quickly escalated into a back and forth discussion between me and my liberal colleague about Obama, Conservatives, Liberals, and possibly even the Easter Bunny. It really became a literary slugfest.
I posted an article on Facebook titled: Elderly Question Flu Shot Controls, written by Paul Harasim of the Las Vegas Review Journal. I tend to post articles on Facebook that I don’t see picked up by the main stream media. It sparked a lively discussion with a liberal friend of mine that, in truth, I have a great deal of respect for regardless of his political affiliation. Here is the original article I posted:

Elderly Question H1N1 Flu Shot Controls

...And here is how the discussion went down:

His Response: A true "kollective" would hold him down kicking and screaming while they vaccinated him. Tell you what, he can have my H1N1 shot. I'll take my chances...

Another Responder: Me too. I'll take my chances

I suppose I then took it to another level...which was really the level that I was criticizing in the first place: Government-run health care

Clonewolf: I'm taking my chances as well. But that is by my choice and not the choice of a state-run health organization (Clark County Health District). Point is, the gov't sucks at just about everything it puts its hand to: Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, Post Office, just to name a few. I'm not excited about paying a couple hundred $$ more per month to let them make a bad healthcare industry even worse.

"Public Health Care For All, Now!"

Will you pay my portion of this? Because I won't be using it and apparently it is something you're so excited about that you're willing to pay double.

No? Awww what a shame, now I'm stuck paying for the "healthcare" of a professional welfare recipient in the Herbert Gerson projects with 8 kids from 11 different fathers. (math skills compliments of UNLV Math Dept)....
I work twice as hard to cover the slack of someone who refuses to work - Socialism in a nutshell - reward the slacker, penalize the hard worker.

Liberal Friendy: Not sure where we are going here.

I drank the free market Kool-Aid for a time and I came to realize that it is a myth like the Unicorn or the Easter Bunny. The reason it is a myth is because corporations seek to maximize profits in ways that are contrary to the fundamentals of a free market. All. The. Time.
In a free market, the Gerson Project ... families could afford health insurance and wouldn't have to put downward pressure on your earnings. The insurance industry has circumvented the free market to maximize their profits (see 1945 McCarran-Ferguson Act) by monopolizing an industry then controlling cost not to make coverage affordable and accessible to all (a sound free market ideal) but to maximize the profits of their shareholders. This is done by denying coverage, strong arming health care providers, raising rates and canceling "unprofitable" policies. Meanwhile, Gerson family can't afford health insurance but Gerson family still gets sick. Gerson family now has to seek public assistance because child #7 has an infection from a rat bite she received in her crib.

Clonewolf: OK...so your argument doesn't really support the idea of an inept government running the health care system, nor does it truly condemn a free market approach to health care. It seems to mostly expose the ridiculous abuses laid upon us by insurance companies. That...I agree with 100%. The answer to abusive insurance companies is not turning it over ... to an abusive federal government. This is like asking a pack of wolves to save the hen house from the fox. Insurance abuse? Run to the higher power- the Federal Government, 5% chance you might get somewhere. Federal Government abuses? no where to run. Just ask anyone on the working end of an IRS bully session. You can sue an insurance company, lawyers make a lot of money doing so. You won't get anywhere suing the Federal Government. The IRS doesn't even have to show up to court.

My point is not far from your point. Here is the solution: Get rid of the insurance companies and force doctors to compete with one another for patients. Laugh if you will, but having 2,000 doctors, 20 hospitals, and 50 clinics in one city competing directly against each other for patient care - will drive the cost of health care down. Instead of millionaire doctors and billionaire insurance CEOs - we would have plenty of gauze bandages for rat bites everywhere. We might even see people going into the medical profession for the right reasons: to help people (not to get rich and play golf in Hawaii). Just my idealistic suggestion.

Anything but giving more control, power, and our money away to the Federal Government.

Liberal Friendster: I guess I look at the government as Us. We the People, etc... If an industry has run roughshod over the consumers, we the people (collectively... Ha Ha!) have the power to change their practices through negotiation, regulation or even coercion, if need be. I don't see the government as some Orwellian entity set on oppressing the population. ...We elect our representatives to act on our behalf and to exercise our will. If they fail, we vote them out. The fun part about a democracy is usually a little less than half the population feels disenfranchised after every election cycle. That's just politics.

Clonewolf: Amazing....what a difference a Kenyan makes! I remember you calling George Bush our "Duly Appointed President" which doesn't strike me as an "I love the government and the government is US" sort of mentality. I agree, when the Repubs are in, we are told the government is evil and not to be trusted and CNN will run gallup polls showing how people do... not trust the government. Now that the Demos are in power, the gallup polls have all but disappeared...AMAZING! Nevertheless, Repubs everywhere will tell you that the Federal Govt can't be trusted.

For my part, I will say that even when the Executive Branch, Senate, and Congress were all Republican controlled, I still never allowed myself to be so naive as to think that the Federal Government still operated in my best interests, and I REALLY know it doesn't operate in my best interests under this current propagandistration.

The Federal Government can no longer operate as it did in the early 19th century. The biggest US city was still less than a million. Back then, it was "By The People...For The People...etc" Today, its been turned into a control machine (Orwellian thinking be damned) and It is far too big for the nostalgic "blind trust" sort of thinking. If we ditch the two party politics and go to a Direct Democracy...then I would agree with you (you must watch a lot of CNN) about the US Govt being a warm fuzzy Teddy Bear comprised of me and my warm fuzzy neighbors.

Liberal Friend: Let's not rehash the 2001 election. You know what happened. Gore won the popular vote, Bush claimed Florida's Electoral votes (his brother was Governor). Gore disputed results, Supreme (Rhenquist) Court threw out the case. Bush is duly "adjucated" (not appointed) president. I can live with that.

What I can't live with is this race baiting ("what a difference a Kenyan makes?" WTF?), fear mongering vomited up by the conservative mouthpieces du jour. The reason CNN, ABC, 123, baby you and me... put the beat down on Bush is because he was proven to be an inept lying little puppet of the Military Industrial Complex that a former Republican President (Eisenhower) once warned us about. Funny, today IKE would be drummed out by his own party as a left wing radical. As would Ronald Reagan: He would fail on six of the 10 planks in the Conservative Movement Platform.

Reality does hurt. It is naive to think that you and your neighbors are all warm and fuzzy together. That is why we have Law and Government... and Religion (but that's another debate) - to control. Left uncontrolled, society would decay into anarchy and the bodies would pile up in the streets. ...

Ah, the Constitution: proud words on a dusty shelf - a relic of a bygone era. I disagree with you that the government can no longer operate under it's precepts. The document is flexible, amendable to the will of the people. That was the intention of it's creators. If this country suffers from "blind trust" then we are truly doomed. I once heard a comparison between a Representative Republic and a Democracy. In the former, a criminal is tried by a jury of his peers and executed. In the latter, a mob is formed and the criminal is lynched. Point being, a Direct Democracy is a slippery slope at the very least.

As an aside, I don't watch CNN so please stop referring to them in your shots at me. I'm an MSNBC man. Get it right, bro. Olbermann @ 5 p.m. and that hottie Maddow @ 6 p.m. Booyah!

Clonewolf: "duly appointed" was the tongue in cheek statement that you made several years ago and was only mentioned to support my point: trust of the Federal Government primarily flows along partisan lines with everybody. Why is it that liberals have the hardest time admitting partisanship? I don't get that.

Now, I like what you said about "race baiting" because I find that among the extreme left, if you disagree with ANYthing Obamunist whatsoever, you can count on somebody, somewhere pulling out the race card. I just never thought with your intelligence (I mean that sincerely by the way) that you would stoop to ad hoc/ad hominem "race" card fallacies. When I say "Kenyan" I don't give a crap about the dude's color or his "race". If anything, I was "citizenship baiting" but sadly, everyone is hunting for racism with the McCarthy-like fervor. When in reality its just smoke and mirrors to distract and detract from the fact that this guy lied about his citizenship, lied about his political ideology (he claimed he was 'center' and is really an extremist lefty) he also lied about removing earmarks, lied about limiting lobbyists, lied about "no new taxes" (a la George Bush Sr.), lied about no more troops to Afghanistan (30K just as I told you a week ago) and the list goes on and on. Tonight he will lie again and try to waffle about putting in 30K troops with an exit plan in 6 mos. He is currently the object of worship for all leftists so they will believe him. But in 6mos, 1 year, 2 years, etc we will still be there and he will again be busted in a lie. Will that be reported on MSNBC? Probably not if Tiger Woods has a broken windshield during that time. Obama makes Bill Clinton look like Honest Abe and I never thought that would be possible.

I don't even care that he was born in Kenya, what I do care about is the damage he's done and is still doing to America in the short time he has been in office....

Regarding Ronald Reagan, the current conservative Republican platform is actually defined by the principles of the Reagan administration: Strong national defense, Smaller Government - i.e Lower Taxes, Reduced Governmental Spending, etc.
If there are any differences in the 10 point platform you mention (by the way I would LOVE to hear what those 10 points are) and the platform of the Reagan administration, it would be due to the Republican party making a horrible decision to alienate its conservative base by moving to the left (or center as the liberals like to call it)

Here are a few points that showed the success of Reagan's approach:

* Unemployment reduced from 7.6% down to 5.5%.
Obama has taken ol Bushy Bush's 8% and driven it up to nearly 13% in only 1 year! I think you liked to use the words "incompetent puppet"?

* Economic growth averaged 3.2 percent during the Reagan years versus 2.8 percent during the Ford-Carter years and 2.1 percent during the Bush-Clinton years.
Obama has been at this almost a year and it is looking like we will again sink into the negatives regarding economic growth - despite what liberal analysts like to claim

I hope you are genuinely joking when you say "take a shot" because I am not seriously trying to insult you, its all in good fun, for me anyway. I just have a family of liberals from my Dad on down so its a bit frustrating when I have discussions where no alternative point of view is welcomed i.e. the liberal Howard Dean declaring the debate between Capitalism and Socialism "over" before it really ever started.

I promise never to accuse you of watching CNN again, Lord knows I wouldn't want that accusation thrown at me. I shall turn my sites on MSNBC from now on.


This is where the glorious discussion on H1N1 ended...again...rabbit trails galore...we wound up summoning the ghosts of Ronald Reagan, Dwight D Eisenhower, and even Senator McCarthy.

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